Steve Sachoff: Welcome, Natalie. We're happy to have you here at the Weight of the World podcast. What I'd like to start with is to first of all point out that you were born during what were the last few years of Czechoslovakia's totalitarian regime. You were the child of an American mother and a Czech father. I was wondering if you could go back in time a little bit for us and tell us about your childhood memories of that period, the sense of place for Czechoslovakia at that time, if you had that sense of place when you were that young, where it stood in the larger world and also where you were in that context as a Czech and an American.

Natalie Kocab: I was just thinking about it today, that even as a child, my, like, I don't know, the oldest memories, I think I always had a sense of that this is not normal, because the life and the reality in Czechoslovakia was kind of blank and not a lot of colors, but there was a lot of action. There was a of people. There was a lot of stuff going on that I didn't understand.

And then I went to America, where I've been going ever since I was born. And there was this calmness, colors and Walmart [laughs] and, and just everything was, it was like a huge playground, America. America was like a symbol of childhood, somehow. But still I remember kind of always acknowledging that this was not a normal setup, there was something weird about it. So that would be my first impression. And it was the bipolar dynamic that was strange. And I think I kept seeking, from that moment on, to kind of balance it. I think that's what I've always been trying to do. And then it kind of twisted. But that's a different story.

You were traveling to the US, back and forth, and you've told me a little bit about these first impressions. But as you grew older, and of course 1989 happened, the Velvet Revolution, how did your feelings or thinking, did it change, did it evolve when you were thinking of this back and forth between Czechoslovakia, then the Czech Republic, and the US?

In America, I always felt like a second-rate citizen. That was just how it was. And it's not like anybody said it. It was just, you had worse clothes. You know, you didn't know all the new trends and, you just kind of were. I mean, that's…there's no doubt about that. But a kid doesn't see how interesting an immigrant can be, you know, so you kind of get this, I'm not as good as they are, but then you're not adult enough to see that you are just as interesting, maybe because you come from a different reality. So I don't know about my sister or brother, but I really felt and I disliked and I kind of tried to brush off that second-rate citizen feeling. That is a big chunk of my childhood, actually.

When you were back here in Czechoslovakia or Czech Republic, did you feel, did you have the opposite feeling? Like you had this American dimension to yourself and you were…

No, because I was never totally American. But I was never totally Czech. But then I came from America and I didn't kind of fit here. But you know, I wouldn't have, even if I was [only] Czech. My dad's world is so bizarre that I wouldn't have fit either way. But I didn't know that. I think it's pretty normal for any bilingual [person], for any immigrant. But back then, [Czechoslovakia’s] being a communist state, and America, that was the most bizarre combination.

Right, so this kind of feeling of a perpetual outsider. Yes. a way, in both places, never fully at home.

Yeah, [I] never ever fit in.

So your mother is American and your father, Michal Kocab, was a prominent Czech dissident and later, he was involved in the formation of Civic Forum, the opposition movement here, the umbrella organization [of democratic parties] after the revolution, and he then became, he was an advisor to President Havel and moved in these circles. He was also a musician. I was wondering if you could, what was it like being being part of a dissident family growing up in Czechoslovakia?

 I didn't know anything else. And again, I think I felt that it is not an average case, family case. Because there was nothing stable about it. I think there was not a day when there were less than 10, 12 people [meeting] in our apartment. And I would say on average 20, but I don't know, maybe I'm exaggerating, but I don't think so, actually. So there would just be people flooding in and out of the apartment.

And I knew something extraordinary was going on. I knew that. I didn't know what, maybe. Dissidents, as adults, there's this thrill. Obviously you have to have, I'm sorry to say, but have the balls to do what you're doing. You kind of, kind of balance it out. But the kid just kind of takes in the fear. And also he doesn't understand if the fear is adequate to what's really going on. So, that is also a big part of what I'm seeing and feeling when I picture my childhood.

So you sensed that something was going on, but there was this element of danger to it. And that was what was strongest for you, not this thrill or excitement of doing something rebellious. And how was it with your mother at this time? I mean, your mother, an American, was one of the only, or maybe the only, American really living here [in Communist Czechoslovakia]. Did you see her in a different light from your father or, you know, he was this pole attracting all these people to your apartment, to your everyday life. What was [your mother’s] influence on you at that time?

I could sense that my mom was, I don't want to say unhappy, but sad. I could sense that also today, I know that I didn't sense it right. She was also drawn to it. So I don't think, if she was really that sad, how I saw it [at the time], that I don't think she would have left, but she, that is a big part of her nature to be part of this artistic adventure. So she didn't know when she came here, she didn't speak Czech. This was 1982. I was born in 1984. So I didn't speak Czech because my dad was actually never home, and even if he was, he was talking to other people. So I didn't speak Czech, at least until my sister was born. Well, I was three years old, but then I still didn't. So, [until] four or five years of age, I spoke English and nobody else did [except my mom]. When my mom took me to a park, when she went anywhere, she didn’t [speak Czech]. And anytime she spoke or fought with my dad, they would speak German. Everything was so strange, but I didn't know anything else. So I think that's why I'm an artist today. And the older I get, the more bizarre it seems to me. It is really strange. And a clash of [American] South, the deep South and, you know, Prague, in 1984 is…you just can't. That is really weird. If I was a writer and I wrote a story about two families from those two parts of the world, it would have not been as good a story.

So after you're coming out of this period, and then the revolution happens, your father is kind of thrust into this public position. How did that change your life at the time? You know, you're in school, you’re a child, still quite young - were you aware of what was going on? And what did you think of all of this? These changes that they may have been discussing when you were even younger, pre-1989 and then here, it's happening. How aware of that were you?

Well, my dad, he founded a band, Pražský výběr , and it's a legendary band. So when I was born, they were like, really famous. So I was used to that. What happened in the nineties is, it kind of all calmed down because the thrill was before - they were prosecuted by the communist regime. And so that was like the intense time. And so then the nineties came and for us here, I think it was the best time because we saw how capitalism and the American way of life was step by step coming into Europe. I mean, not Europe, Middle Europe or the Czech Republic. And that was fun because…a really important moment in my life was…I have several, but I specifically remember 7 Up showing up. And Dove deodorant and Oreos.

You know, when all these products finally hit…McDonald's, of course - that's like an important milestone for every Czech citizen, actually as a joke and not as a joke. But when these products actually arrived, my relatives would just have the biggest laugh about it in America. We also did because we knew it, but they would never understand how important this event was because that was absolute proof that freedom was here. So we watched this during the 1990s. Our clothes got better, we had interesting brands or just weird stuff that we wore or said or whatever. And then we kind of gradually got better, not better, but in the end my aunt said, you look like a rich European. And I had the sleaziest jacket on. It was like the cheapest jacket here. But I realized at that moment that even if I had the worst jacket here, to them I was like the chic European. And those details I remember, because they are a shift in society. So the tables turn, slowly, and it took time for me to realize this but yeah we did.

I was wondering if, as you became more more familiar with American culture and the political situation and institutions, if there was anyone, any American figure or group or organization that was an influence on you in a positive way. I mean, that you sort of looked at and thought, you know, this is something they do well in America or is a good example. Were there any big [American] influences on you in that [sense]?

I'm not the right person to ask because first of all, the beat generation was not an influence as to how to live, but it was very popular after the revolution. And so I was really full of that. Then of course I entered the hip-hop golden age. So I was the biggest Eminem fan and Dr. Dre and Snoop Dogg. Okay. After the revolution, [American] movies, books [were very influential.]. Yeah. But Europeans usually read more European books, but music, definitely. Gosh, music was the biggest [influence.]. It was MTV and all the reality shows. Okay, yeah, that's [also] the answer, TV. This was a major impact. I think Americans kind of tend to look down on it, but I work in the TV industry. I've worked for 10 years. That's all I know. And it still is, that's just the core of what we want to know and do and try to do.

In addition to your day job, you're also a musician yourself and a writer. Do you think these experiences…have you drawn on this, this unusual background of yours in your writing work, for example?

It kind of gets on my nerves, because I sometimes think I can do nothing else, but I have so many impressions and so many strange stories that I still kind of pick up on them and then I develop them. But I never really reflected the combination or yeah, the combination of the two worlds. I never did that. And I think it's the time now to kind of look at it specifically with what's going on in America lately,  which is for me as a writer, the greatest narrative shift I have ever seen in my life. So that's where I'm going to kind of head now.

Narrative shift is a good way to put that. We're definitely in the middle of one. I think it's fair to say you're a very civically engaged person, pro-democracy supporter. You've taken on, from what I know, this has become an increasing part of your public persona. You seem very dedicated to that. Has that been a long-running idea of yours, or is that something you felt has become more urgent recently?

So I've always been [somewhat] political, but not that much. I think a lot less than you would have guessed as being my dad's daughter. And also, I kind of always feared the moment that I would become an activist. I was like, I want to write. I don't want to have to do that. And that didn't even happen when Putin invaded Ukraine. I mean, that was all we thought about. That is an attack on Europe. But it was nothing like when Trump won. Between January and February [2025] was when I realized that this is going to happen, that it's way worse, in combination with Putin's politics in Europe. It was like a part of my brain just exploded and I was like, now, now, do something now! And I didn't know what. I didn't, I wasn't a part of activist groups, part of government groups, nothing. I was just always a writer. I didn't know what to do. So what I did, I just started writing, because I didn't know anything about [what was happening] as well. I didn't know Peter Thiel or what happened in Silicon Valley. I had no idea. And I was shocked by not only what's going on there, but how I could not have any idea…Project 2025; [I knew about it] but I always laughed at it. Hillary Clinton's Pizzagate. I knew about it, but I just thought it was... and then you realize it's actually real [that people actually believe this.]. And that was biggest shock of my life. And it was, I think, mainly because I was here. Because if I had been living in America, I would have picked up a lot more. So I realized this way before the Czech media did, because of this, you know, my nationality.

And I also realized that even if the Czech media did pick up, which they did a lot later than I thought they would have, that they would never pick up on the context. And I said, okay, I'm going to try to figure this out myself and try to explain it to them. What I know and even don't know, I'm not going to write [about] it like a journalist. I'm going to write [about] it like a fellow citizen. And let's try to figure this absolute chaos out.

So that's what I did. Still, I didn't know… I was [just] going to write it for a couple of friends. And people just caught on. And I realized how desperate they are, Czech people and how completely connected to American politics they are, which we always thought. But this was a big revelation for me as well, that the fall of America, I think I can say it today, is very personal to Czech people. If that falls, what are we? So this is big, and it's something I sometimes try to tell Americans. You don't realize how personal this is to at least some part of Europe.

Right. And so you had this gut reaction kind of you needed to do something.

Yeah, so at first I started figuring out stuff like Silicon Valley and blah, blah. So I wrote these posts trying to explain stuff. Then, as it got faster and faster, I started informing [about] what's going on. Then I started explaining context. Then I started explaining [things] like the big beautiful bill, what it is exactly. And it just kind of graduated, but you just cannot keep up. Specifically if you have a job or even if you don't have a job, you just cannot keep up. And even if you do, which I think I do information-wise, you kind of have to pick or know which information is important. But I need to talk, and we all need to talk, to people that kind of don't want to talk. You know?

Right, Yeah, not [be] preaching to the choir as they say in English. What I what I like to turn to kind of in our final segment or last few questions here is To ask you as someone with this very particular life experience so far Ie having lived under a totalitarian regime Having this close or closer than most Czechs relationship with American culture and politics and society and everything American. Post-election, you said you picked up on this very quickly, but could you elaborate on what concretely, are some of the biggest red flags you see as a person who's familiar with this kind of evolution towards authoritarianism, and what is your level of concern? Let's, can, one to 10 on a scale. Yeah, so what are these red flags, and how concerned are you at the moment?

It is beyond…I am the most concerned, I think, American citizen, at least in Europe, I think. I could not be more concerned. I'm so concerned that my mom tells me to calm down, but I can't. And I think it's because I have this obsession for seven months now that I am nonstop just inhaling the information. So I listen to podcasts, then I read news all the time. So I just absorb all the information. Because of that, I kind of see it in real time and I see the incredible decline of democracy. And it's just all these little steps. And before you can explain the step, there's another one somewhere else, and you see it, but then you have to connect these and they kind of don't connect. So there comes that context. And it's just, you were so late in telling the people, wake up! 

You know, I've never done this before. This is just the biggest wake up call of my life, and my biggest concern is that Americans just don't get it. How bad this is and how you kind of can't go back from these steps. I'm watching it like a movie. I’m reading it like a book. And I'm far away, or it feels like it. So I can actually [see]...this is gonna happen. This is gonna go down. I can do that. And it's horrific.

And I also, thanks to my dad, know what Russia is. And I know if America, it's they, if they fall, even if they don't realize it, then we will fall. It's just my greatest gift in life that I have seen two nations in the most extreme, both of them in the most extreme part of history. And one's my dad's and one's my mom's.

And so I can't expect for anybody else to see the same picture. But it is time to rise and to fight and fight, fight. Fight tough. Fuck the gloves. Just take them down.

Well, there's the name of our episode right there. Fuck the gloves! But do you, when you look at the opposition movement or whatever you want to call it in America, at the moment, do you feel like anyone is getting it? Or is there anyone you see as an example or you pay special attention to who is not just a politician, but in the cultural sphere, writing, journalists, anyone who is on your wavelength?

 Gosh, think the majority of these people. Gavin Newsom, he's just…thank God for him. But we need a lot more Gavin Newsoms. I have been studying the resistance movement. There's so many people that are creating this universe of resistance that's going to come into action. And it will, I'm sure of it, gradually, besides what I just said, which was really dramatic, but I think really real. Besides that, I think I'm witnessing a huge fight for democracy. I am sure that if anybody can win this fight on the entire planet, then it's Americans.

Not to make you speak for him, but what does your father think of this, of what's going on? [He’s] someone who, I would imagine like this generation of dissidents that I know, were so pro-American, used america as an example…a lot of them are actually what we call Reagan Republicans or something, center-right people. Can you say a few words about how he feels about what's going on? 

They're very confused, but also they know and understand that what's going on in America has a lot to do with Russian disinformation scenes. It's induced by this disinformation war coming from Russia, and we know about it. So that's not that surprising that they would divide the people to a stage where there's kind of like no coming back.

What's new to them is the extent of social media politics and the whole world of social media. For that generation, where it was just a newspaper and dissent. You'd go to jail, and then come out. There was always an ending, and this is like, ugh, what do I do? I'm fluid. There's disinformation. That's not true. And what is true? This is so confusing. And the only people that kind of, you know, get a hold of it, is my generation and the younger one, and we still don't. So I think that's just, that's what he feels. But it's not like we feel that America's failing, we feel that America is going through the same thing in a worse time. Yeah, so a lot of us are meeting all the time with different types of groups and just endlessly discussing how to help.

Well, on that note, let's go to my last question. And this is the question we are asking all of our guests. As a Czech citizen, as an American, you have a very unique vantage point, and we're at this, as you said, this kind of inflection point in time - what advice would you give to Americans who right now are struggling to understand what's going on? What advice do you have for them?

The number one advice I would have is start networking, meet people, go out, put the phone down, go out and meet just anybody you even remotely want and talk. That's what I did when I kind of exploded into activism because I didn't know what else to do. I just started meeting people, and I met a huge universe of new friends that I wouldn't have necessarily been drawn to in times of peace or so-called peace. But that saved my mental health, and it has made, in a way, my life better. Meet people, talk to them, and just become social. Because that not only helps everything about your life, but that is the way to fight regimes, become friends.

Well, Natalie, thank you very, very much. It's been so interesting and I really appreciate all your insights and your time.

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You can listen to this conversation by following Weight of the World on Spotify and Apple. This transcript has been lightly edited for clarity.