Katalin Cseh: Hi everyone, I'm Katalin Cseh. I'm a member of the Hungarian parliament. I represent the Liberal Party and I'm so excited to join Steve today. 

Steve Sachoff: Katalin, welcome to Weight of the World. We're very excited to be speaking with you. You're actually our first Hungarian guest, and we’re excited about that. What I wanted to start with today was to go backwards a little bit. To just set the stage for people. You have quite an interesting background. So, if we could start there with your childhood and the fact that you were born in Canada, in Montreal. What's the story, what's your connection with Canada and at what point did you move to Hungary? 

Well, yes indeed, I've come a long way to end up in the opposition to Viktor Orban, and it all started in Montreal. My dad was a chemical engineer and in the late 1980s he decided to take the big leap and go abroad for postgraduate work. And he ended up in Montreal alongside my mom - searching for opportunities, seeing the world, young people, just trying to find out what's out there. Long story short, I was born there. My brother was also born there. So I just, I kind of grew up in my early [years] in this very multicultural environment. Everybody was from somewhere [else.] There were a bunch of different languages spoken around me. And it was really exciting. I was four, so I guess everything is exciting. But I just can't help to think about how these early experiences shaped me, so it was a pretty good start to my life. 

So you moved to Hungary. How old were you when you relocated?

[I was] in my kindergarten years, so it was quite early. I was born in 1988, so before the democratic transition in Hungary. But by the time I was at the age when we moved back, it was already in the early to mid 1990s. So I guess my parents figured that, you know, there is this new country, reborn, all these opportunities. And the end of the old system. So it was also a time for them to, you know, go back to their roots and start something new. Well, I don't know how they feel about it at this point, but back then it sounded like a great idea. 

You were in Canada when the Berlin Wall came down and all these things are happening. You were really quite young, so you probably don't remember, but how did your, before you moved back to Budapest, Do you remember how your parents talked about what was happening [back in Hungary]? Or do you have any recollection of [thinking about] why you were in Canada and what you were going back to? 

Well, I think at that point, I was more concerned with my toys and the playground. I was like three or four. But in retrospect, when I grew older, I also spoke a lot with my parents about, you know, their early ages, how they felt in the prior system, why they moved, why they came back. And it's actually a fascinating story. I never knew my maternal grandparents, but I heard a lot about them. They were those types of Hungarian intellectuals who were very heavily persecuted in the previous system. They were the folks who listened to Radio Free Europe in secret in their basement. They went to church in protest. That wasn't something that was liked here. My grandmother, for instance, she was a pharmacist. She owned her own pharmacy. It was nationalized.

So basically, they took her property away and they were so gracious to offer her the chance to work as an employee in the pharmacy that she previously owned. My granddad was a lawyer. They took away his law degree and he was forced to retrain himself as a librarian at the age of 40. So that must have been rough. And they unfortunately died before seeing the democratic transition. And it was just...like a story I heard about, you know, old ages, about my grandfather always having his backpack in the courtyard because he never knew when the Secret Service would turn up. So this was all like ancient history for me when I was a kid. And I could have never have imagined that this path to democracy that we eventually started, that my grandparents did not survive to see, and that my parents were so excited to be, you know, part of, will not be a journey leading to eternal happiness and constant development. 

Yeah, the world has a way of not going to plan. So these were formative stories from your grandparents' generation, of what they went through, and you became increasingly aware of, even though you were not really, you had just been born and you didn't live under the system, these stories made you aware of what was going on and sort of set something in your mind about understanding the dynamic there.

Well, I guess I did, but only in a way how a child is aware of stuff that they read about in history books. So when I was growing up in Hungary, we were watching American cartoons. You know, we could buy anything in the shops. We had all these, I don't know, international chains here. And as I said, I was born in this, like, very multicultural environment. My friends or the kids of my mom's friends, were, you know, super mixed, half Indian, a half Norwegian kid, Chinese couple, everybody was from somewhere [else]. The world was open for me and I could never imagine a time, personally, when it was different. And when I grew older, of course, I became aware of all these historical traumas that people still carried with them, even though on the surface level, everything was different. And I still can't stop thinking about the marks we still bear in our society nowadays. 

And so my parents, they were intellectuals and they were very curious people and everything. But still in our family, it was a bit like, okay, so you just don't discuss politics. It's not something that you talk about. And my mom told me when I was small that they would support me in whatever I want to do. It's up to me. But [they said] please just don't be a politician because that's dangerous.

So, you know, being active in your community, having your voice heard to stand up against power, that was something dangerous, even for people like my parents or their generation, or my grandparents' generation. And somehow it has transformed society even after we had free and fair elections. It's not something that goes away easily. 

So you are quite young and you decide to study medicine and eventually become a doctor, work as a doctor for several years. And at the same time, you become politically engaged and involved in starting, you launched this Momentum movement. I guess It was initially a civic movement that then evolved into a political party. So can you talk a little bit about A) your path into medicine and how that sort of at the same time, this political awakening, despite your parents warning you to not become a politician - how did all happen together? 

Well, it actually all happened a bit earlier. My first formative political experience was when Hungary joined the EU in 2004 and I was in high school back then. And I have this very vivid memory of,I don't know why, I was heading home from school maybe, when we joined the EU, and it was this like huge national party. The streets were full of EU flags. It was like people marching on the streets, walking around, having parties, waving flags, people from all different countries, from neighboring countries as well. So it was this, like, huge multicultural mix and it was an amazing feeling. And I just felt that eventually after all these years and after all the struggles of the generation of my grandparents and parents, finally, for me, for people who were young at that time, that [old] part [of history] has really, really [been] left in the past. So for us, it will be this new open world, part of the democratic community that Hungary has always been eager to join. Nations as friends, open borders, prosperity, human rights. I mean, of course, I wasn't that specific about that back then, but it was just a feeling that we have arrived to our place, to this community of democracy, of freedom where we always wanted to belong. And that really filled me with joy and confidence. 

And when in 2010, I saw the Orban government being elected and Hungary stepping on the road of basically taking these freedoms and these opportunities away, I felt alarmed, and I felt that I really need to do something on my level to stop that from happening. To stand up for those chances, I kind of took it for granted, my generation. I just didn't want to slide back to an age where my grandparents lived and where people are not free to talk, where they weren't equal before a court, where if you are different, you have problems. If you have opinions or political views, then you can be persecuted. So that was what led me to becoming active first in NGOs, and then, in the youth wing of another party. And eventually, when I felt, alongside some friends, that really nobody represents us, the young generation who has these values of human rights, freedoms, equality, sustainability in their hearts, who want to belong in the democratic community, we felt that there is no voice for us. And that's when we started our own movement which eventually became a political party with elected officials. 

And medicine, of course, that went parallel in a way. Because I always had this feeling that I want to help people or I want to, you know, make good use of my time here on planet Earth. And, I figured, you know, healing people, it's a good way to approach that. But yeah, I also felt when I started working that you can only do so much good on the individual level, and the entire system around you is broken. So that kind of also fed into my larger motivation to try to fix things on a larger scale and try to help to restore freedoms and opportunities or values for those fellow countrymen who are suffering from incompetent or immoral governments around us. 

Do you think you were extra sensitive to what was going to happen under Orban? it seems like you kind of knew this right away and swung into action. I mean, did you feel like you had to convince people of this and how aware were they of what might be coming down the road? 

Well, unfortunately, society wasn't aware enough and just maybe a few words of context. So Viktor Orban had been prime minister before [his election in 2010]. He had this middle of the road, center-right government, nothing special. And then after him, when he lost the election,a social liberal government came to power which, well, they were quite an unpopular government with very bad handling of the financial and economic situation of the country. This happened right before the financial crisis [of 2008], so that hit us as a country, as a nation, very hard. And at the same time, people were really hit by a diversifying economic situation. So it was a very unpopular government [that preceded Orban’s election in 2010], and Orban promised change, a renewal of the nation, getting rid of this corrupt, incompetent elite, restoring Hungary's place in the world, and this was something people liked. So basically he was elected with a majority that allowed him to do literally anything, including changing the constitution, rewriting all the major laws, reshaping the country, the justice system, the media, the way that local governments work.

Really, he had the power to do anything, and he used his power. And for the first years, I somehow think that those who were vocal about these changes leading in the bad direction, they were looked at kind of weird. Like, you know, why are you overreacting? It’s okay. It's not that bad. I mean, come on, it's like nothing big. And this really vexed me, because the first changes when they, for instance, lowered the retirement age of judges, when they fired a lot of judges, when they packed the courts with their own men, when they installed a media authority - this was already a warning sign of them wanting to do very bad things with the media, I really felt that these are alarm bells ringing and [yet] somehow, you know, they are not reaching the people who should be listening.

So I got into activism, we organized protests. But I still think that people are just so reluctant to imagine that their lives can radically change and that the comfortable system around them, where they feel free and where they feel that nothing big is happening, can actually change the world. It is hard to imagine that your country that you've known to be a democracy, will turn away from this route. And I think that society arrived at this general conclusion maybe a bit late, a bit too late.

Well, a lot of that sounds familiar, and we'll talk about that in a bit. You have this awakening, you become active civically, you move on to your own initiative and then a party. And the party, Momentum ran in the 2018 election and you didn't win any mandates at that point. So then you turned your attention to the European level and became an MEP, a member of parliament at the European Parliament. 

Absolutely. I was elected [as an MEP] in 2019 indeed. 

And so you go to Brussels, Strasbourg, [and I was] wondering if you could talk a bit about what you did there exactly, accomplishments you're proud of and also just what it was like being an MEP at a time when, to put it mildly, your country at home had a difficult relationship with the EU. 

Well, that was my main motivation. And actually, that was my main goal, to get to the European level and try to fix things from there. Because I felt that it was not only Hungarians who did not grasp the gravity of the situation, neither did the EU itself. So I think it's important to state for your U.S. audience that in order to be a member of the EU, a country has to undergo a lot of very rigid steps. Part of these are economic, [meeting] banking, harmonization, agriculture [benchmarks], all of these things. But the other very important pillar is values and democracy. And these are very heavily monitored. And Hungary has gotten to a point where if we were applying to the EU now, we would not get in! So while being a member of the democratic community, we managed to destroy our democracy to an extent that we were now incompatible with the community we were in! 

But as the Orban government really captured the judiciary, they developed this oligarchy close to the government or even related directly to family members of Viktor Orban. They got very rich. In return, they bought up media. This media enhanced and distributed the lies of the government. And in return, they kept winning the elections because the free media was shrinking in parallel. So basically it means that the EU is giving money to uphold a system that is destroying our democracy, against our EU laws. And I just felt this is absurd. 

So my main goal was to install stricter controls when it comes to EU money [and how it is spent], and [ensure] that the EU is not funding oligarchies. And if somebody or some country or some entity is applying for EU funds, they should be also compliant with EU values. I mean, come on, why give money to people who destroy your human rights, right? It's absolutely absurd, but this was a really tough fight. So I had a tough five years. Well, it was a hard fight and I am very thankful because the liberal community, I think they were very aware of this matter. The liberal parties have been fighting for democracy in Hungary and elsewhere for many years. And we managed to draft a law and sign, or vote through a law that is called the Rule of Law Conditionality Mechanism that essentially ties EU money to EU values. This was a very big, big law. I worked on that a lot. I negotiated it and if used correctly, you know, [it can] stop countries treating the EU as an ATM that ignores EU values and EU rules, and [stop them from] only taking the money and using it for their own malign purposes. I mean, I honestly think that was a historic success. And I hope that this might help to prevent a similar situation from developing elsewhere. 

Because at this point, Hungary is very closely associated with Viktor Orban. So it really drove me to show that no, there is a different Hungary. There is a Hungary where we value human rights, where we value democracy, where we are open to our neighbors, where we want to help the poor, where we want to give equal rights to our LGBTQ fellow citizens, [to] feminists who believe in choice and free will and [self-] determination. And I wanted to show that our country does not equal Viktor Orban. I hope I [did that] a little bit. 

I'm sure you did. So, and while you were there, you were also a member of the European Parliament's delegation for relations with the United States. Can you tell me a bit about about that experience and what you were working on and this delegation, the relations at that point in time with the U.S. How did that go? 

So that was an interesting time in many ways because I was elected during the first Trump presidency. And back then it was an increased awareness of the fragility, so to say, of the U.S.-EU relationship. And that inspired other European countries to think more about how we can stand on our own feet, how we can shore up our own defense capacities, with the thought in mind that we might not always have a U.S. partner to rely on.  How to power up our own economies, how to be more resilient. And I think that was a very good track that unfortunately stopped very rapidly when Biden was elected. I still think that there is somewhat of an idea of having these allies who act on good faith and that “Trump I” was only a glitch. And of course it is, it was shown that [his election] is not [a glitch]. And also, I mean, I just have to say that I, I really value American democracy a lot. My husband is from the U.S., and I believe in the power of the transatlantic relationship a lot and greatly. And I think that with all the things that are happening in the world today, and that were happening already back then with the rise of authoritarianism and anti-freedom movements, democracies should stick together. But seeing how trust in the US among allies declined so rapidly when Trump took power at the first time and also the second time, It just really makes me unsure about the long-term sustainability of this transatlantic alliance, because, you know, with every election cycle, all the treaties you sign, all the accords you pledge to abide by, can be torn up to pieces. Or maybe they won't be, but, you know, there is a chance that there is no continuity. This really pushes the world to be a much more unstable and selfish place, eventually. 

It's an interesting theme that's come up with several people we've spoken to, about these values, Western values, democratic values. How worried or, how do you have any hope that this, you know, of sticking with this values-based approach to policy, both foreign and domestic? Is this something that will survive? How does that coexist with a situation in which you have a partner or a country like the U.S., the [traditional] leader of the Transatlantic Alliance, who seems to be leaving that behind right now? 

Well, that's a very good question. First of all, I very much regret this track the world has been going on because I don't think that breaking up alliances, losing trust of partners, thinking very short term will make anybody better off. But also, I think that we Europeans, are not powerless in this. So this is why I believe that the EU has to step up, and we have to be stronger, more integrated, and we have to lead on values-based diplomacy, values-based foreign relations, and values-based trade, because we are a huge market. We always underestimate our market powers. So we could be this new center of gravity if we strengthen also our military capacities, our trading powers, and integrate the defense of democracy and the protection of human rights in everything we do. We could rephrase this entire global narrative as the EU if we could speak with one voice, if we undertake reforms we should be doing. 

And hopefully we will have a U.S. administration who sees the power in this and who could join us in this struggle. But I don't think that the EU should be waiting around for the U.S. anymore. Unfortunately, really, this is so painful for me because as a Hungarian, the U.S. has always been like a beacon of hope for us for so long. And we looked at you with so much trust and so much admiration. [But], yeah, we have to take matters into our own hands. And I really hope that the U.S. goes in a direction that is maybe more compatible with this more values-based world, I believe, to cultivate for the future. But if not, it's your choice and we have to make our own choices here.

And maybe just to step in one more thing with this. I really believe that how the world is being shaped for the next hundred years is being decided now and in the years to come. And this is why I also believe that this is so fundamental, that change also happens in Hungary because, we did not talk about this, but the way how Viktor Orban destroyed democracy at home, it also has a very malign effect on how democracy is shaped globally. Not only because he is abusing his power of veto in the EU, that he unilaterally tries to act as the Trojan horse of Vladimir Putin, trying to weaken sanctions, stop arms getting to Ukraine and all that. But also I think Hungary is, in a way, like a petri dish for anti-democratic movements and leaders globally. There is this very widespread cooperation [internationally] between consultants sharing the same mindset. And when I saw, for instance, Hungarian authors popping up in Project 2025, I was not surprised, but also I was very worried, because I have seen how these things shaped up here, and I really don't wish it for the United States. 

You spoke earlier this year at an international forum on authoritarianism and this is where I came across your name for the first time, reading that in The Guardian. You said that Hungary had played an important role in the success of Trump and the MAGA movement and that they had used Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orban and his party as a role model. Can you tell us or talk about that in a little more detail? What parallels do you see between what Orban or what's happened in Hungary and what the MAGA movement is pursuing now in the United States?

Maybe I want to start with [the fact] that if a government is elected and what they do is to try to change the way how the judiciary works, if they remove judges, if they pack the courts. If they touch media freedom, if they harass journalists, if they harass NGOs and rewrite electoral laws, this is usually not a good sign. And I, unfortunately, I have to say I'm discovering very serious parallels here. Also in regards to the way Victor Orban and Donald Trump treat checks and balances. So for Orban, and I guess for every authoritarian-leaning person, possibilities for him to be controlled by laws, having questions asked by journalists, having to contest free elections with everybody having equal voting power, this is not something they usually like. And for instance, when I hear news that the courts are ruling against Trump in cases like nationalizing the police in certain cities or sending...what's a good way to phrase that? Yeah, they're federalizing the local police. Yeah. So there is a court ruling that you cannot do this. And the next day, they announce that they will do it in more and more cities. If there is this complete disregard of the existing legal system and they are pushing on anyways, that is a very scary thing about how institutions are regarded and what can happen next. Because I think that the stability of institutions is really the core of how resilient the country is. 

I just wanted to quickly also, because it's been in the news recently, get your take as a medical professional when you look at what's happening at the Center for Disease Control, the CDC in the U.S., and the head of the Health and Human Services under Robert F. Kennedy Jr. This is another institution that people don't talk about in their day-to-day lives a lot, but it has a huge impact on them. So as a doctor, what's your take on this new direction that they seem to be trying to take the healthcare establishment in?

Well, that's very scary. Of course, I'm watching it from a distance, so I only have an opinion, but I think disease control and the power of science and evidence-based therapies are literally a matter of life and death. And this is not something that you can just play around with politically or try to gain some cheap points with people who might, I don't know, be more prone to conspiracies or more prone to reject evidence. This is not something that should be up for political debate, because it's a scientific debate. And I feel that it is turning more into a politicized arena nowadays in the U.S., and this is extremely scary because when I hear about, you know, diseases popping up because of the lack of vaccination [for diseases] that we were supposed to eradicate or that were supposed to have been eradicated, I don't know, 50 years ago, that is an extremely difficult trajectory and has also, of course, a global implication. And then also just, I don't know how to put it, but it's just so unjust to see people being denied treatments that are already available, that are proven and tested and working just because some guys are having a political debate about something or they want to attract certain types of voters. 

As you're an opposition MP in Budapest, what's your evaluation of the American opposition at the moment, both politically and at the grassroots level? Do you feel like people are grasping the seriousness of what's happening or do you feel it's a bit like when you were a young activist, I mean, you're still young, but when you were a very young activist in 2010, 2011, and we talked about broader society at that point and whether they looked at you as something odd or strange and they weren't so worried. Do you see parallels there?

I would say that a country with a democratic tradition like the US might indeed struggle with facing the fact that their democracy is just as vulnerable as democracies in other places of the world. I know that it might feel very foreign to a lot of people when they hear about equal rights being targeted or the justice system being destroyed or that things might head into a trajectory that is very much against freedoms and values and equality that you had - I think, as a society, [you] were taught [were] accomplished. But I just want to say that no democracy is immune to these problems, and people have to just pay more attention to what is going on day to day, because rebuilding a democracy is much harder than preventing destruction. And I feel that of course this is normal to think that, okay, this is a government, I don't like it, but whatever, they will be gone in three years, four years, [and then] we will have a new one and then it will be back to, you know, [what] I'm used to, but this might not be the case. And I really think that how Orban managed to stay in power was partially due to the fact that people didn't care that much. And then, things got to a point where everything was so bad and people felt that, okay, I cannot do anything anymore. And everybody just tried to survive the day. Yeah, okay, I have to fend for myself, for my family, this is what we have now, well, yeah. It might stay like this or it might never change, or if it changes, that is not because of me doing anything. These [things] are all part of this greater game, right? 

And what I want to say to American people who might not be happy about what's going on is that they have a say in that. And it's very important for them to mobilize. To run in elections, to volunteer at elections, to volunteer at the voting booths, to help the electoral processes, to help causes that might be under attack. If somebody's scared about what's going to happen with women's rights, they should donate to Planned Parenthood or they should step up and help those who are fighting the hard fight because this is our joint pursuit. There won't be this political class that will take care of matters if we don't, as citizens, push them to do so. And we have to be, and you have to be, much more in solidarity with each other. Because also another very good method that is being used by not only Orban but many of these autocrats is they're trying to fragment society in a way that, I don't know, if I'm a worker, I care [only] about labor rights. But if I'm a teacher, I only care about the education system. If I'm a women's rights activist, I only care about health care for women. And no, we should go to every protest. We should go to the protests for causes that have very little to do with our lives. I have to go to help the strike of a factory worker, even if I don't work in a factory. I have to march for women's rights even if I'm a man. Because if we are together, we are much stronger. And I think if society mobilizes, it also pushes politicians to take this situation more seriously and to respond more adequately. 

So, that is part of the last question I wanted to ask [about] -  advice for Americans, but also for Europeans, and for anyone who's concerned right now about the situation of rising authoritarianism. As an opposition [figure], as a person who's been engaged for quite a long time and understands the length of the battle that you have to fight - you've mentioned engagement and the sort of broader sense of solidarity - is there any other advice at the political level or at the grassroots level for Americans who are concerned and trying to understand what is going on right now and what they can do concretely in their daily lives? 

Well, I think it's very important for everybody who is dissatisfied to see themselves as a part of change. They are a stakeholder in this. Their voice matters, so they should use it. Of course, every situation is different and everybody is struggling in different ways. But whatever they can do, they should do. They should go to every protest. They should help [their] cause, write letters to their representatives, maybe consider running in an election or helping a candidate they like. Donate money to small media that they prefer. Talk about politics. I think it's very important to talk, because of course people have a limited trust in politicians and that's something that the political class has to struggle with, but they trust their friends. So if you are concerned about your healthcare being taken away or if you are concerned about what will happen with equal marriage, share these concerns with your hairdresser or with a friend you talk to or in the gym where you go. Make other people see and hear that this fellow citizen that they trust, and know what's on their mind. And maybe, you know, they will trust you more than they trust the news or they trust the propaganda. And we should mobilize as a society and you should mobilize as a society to spread our truth and don't be afraid or [feel] powerless to stand up against the strongmen who might lead the countries we both live in into directions we don't want them to do so. 

Well, that's very good advice and I think it's a good place to end today. It's been great speaking with you, and inspiring, and I appreciate all the hard work you're doing. It's not easy, but it's important. So thanks very much, Katalin Cseh.