Steve Sachoff: I'd like to go backwards a little bit to get your views as a young adult and child who grew up in 1960s and 1970s Czechoslovakia, behind the Iron Curtain. How conscious were you after the Prague Spring of the political system you were living in, and the broader East-West divide?

Petr Kolář: Actually, because of my parents – and especially my father, who was a member of the Communist Party before 1969; as a son of the bourgeoisie, it was not easy for him to get there. But he believed that this was the best system they needed to build together. So, after [the Prague Spring in] ‘68, he totally changed his mind and he left the Communist Party and he became, I would call it...persona non grata here, something like an enfant terrible. So his colleagues in the Academy of Sciences were signing the articles he wrote, just to get some money [for him], and they were helping him to survive. And we were three brothers. I was the oldest one, two younger brothers. So we had a relatively hard time. 

I got my first real jeans only when I was 17. I wanted to have real jeans, [the kind that] lose their color once you wash them. We weren’t living in luxury conditions, but I can't complain. That time was something where I could be proud of my father. My co-pupils [at school] were a bit envious, because for them he was a hero.

For example, [he was] trying to excuse himself or apologize for not preparing the good life for his kids. I was always proud of him, saying, ‘Well, Daddy, I'm proud of you. My friends are envious that I have such a father who is not a commie and not accepted by the communist environment here.’ So, [it was a] mix of feelings. We were at the same time pretty poor, and my jeans were only when I was 17, but at the same time I was proud of my family.

We had a lovely time because we could complain about everything. We could speak about communists [as] idiots, and it was fine. And I was happy about it. It was clear where we were, where the establishment of the country was. And it's true when I grew up and I finally got the chance to study at the university – which was not easy, again, because of my father, but finally we managed to get there, to get me there. Also, because it was just at the time when in the Soviet Union something was changing a bit. So in 1981, when I started to study at the university, it was a year where the communist regime here tried to show that they were not so bad and not so inhuman. And then, fortunately, the year 1989 came, and my entire life totally changed. Everything was suddenly, absolutely different.

Right, I can imagine. So all this is going on in the background, these changes, things are building up, but do remember when the United States first came onto your radar, so to speak? I mean, when you started thinking about it as a place and your first thoughts or impressions?

Well, when I was a very small boy, we were playing those games of cowboys and Indians. And of course, we didn't call our revolvers revolvers. We called them Colts, after the company which now is in Czech hands. Such an iconic label! And we have it now as a Czech company. A Czech-American company. So, I was reading these books about the Wild West and about cowboys and about Indians and about the American spirit. And one of my favorite authors was [Jack] Kerouac. So it was not about the United States only, it was also about the Klondike and Alaska and Canada. So, I had a dream as a relatively young boy that I could move to these deep forests somewhere in Montana or in Canada and live there as a ranger. So it was all connected with the Americas as such. And the United States, of course, was playing a quite important role for me – forming my view about the world, and about the values which are, for every serious society, important in order to be free and democratic.

So you mentioned these childhood dreams of yours, cowboys and Indians, reading Kerouac, all these things. But then you go to the U.S., you live there, you work there for an extended period of time. How did that experience differ from what you had imagined when you were a child?

You know, after the Velvet Revolution here, I got a chance to work in the [Czechoslovak] Institute of Contemporary History, which was established by a guy who came back from exile from Germany, Vilém Prečan, who built his Center of Independent Czechoslovak Literature. And he told me, ‘You know, my dear young fellow, if you really want to do something here, you have to go to the United States and you have to study there for a while.’

So he helped me to get there. And I thought, when I was coming to the United States, I thought that [I knew how to speak] English. So, my first experience with the United States was to realize that I don't speak English. There was my contact with an immigration officer in the airport who asked me some questions, and I had no clue what he was asking about! 

I was studying at the Woodrow Wilson Center in 1990 and then in New York, where I was doing my oral history recordings with some people like [Czechoslovak diplomat and lawyer] Ján Papánek, who was 96 already at that time. So [my ambassadorship] was not my first experience with the United States, but of course to be there as the ambassador is totally different than to be there as a research fellow. And when I came there as the ambassador, it was also quite different from the early ‘90s because they already had a good coffee in the United States – Starbucks! I had to visit them in Seattle, at their headquarters, just to thank them for helping me to survive there. 

I had, during my time as the ambassador, different experiences. But still, the United States – and it's still like this – became my second home. You know, being the ambassador to Sweden or Ireland – great, you know, we always had friends and were feeling quite comfortable there. But [being in] the United States was the first time when I felt like if I wanted to stay there, I could stay there and nobody would be surprised by my strange accent. Nobody would ask me what I'm doing there. I then realized that even my strange accent could be, for some people, quite sexy. I mean, [for the] ladies. I felt from the very first day like I could do something big [there].

You know, my predecessors serving in the United States, they had some big mission, like to get us into NATO or help us, through U.S. influence in Europe, to become members of the European Union, and so on. So, when I went to the United States, I had two big goals. First was the visa waiver for Czech citizens. And second was the so-called ‘American radar’ known as the missile defense project. In Poland, they would have interceptors, and we would have radar [systems] here, close to Prague, in Brdy. (Editor’s note: The official stated aim of the defense system was to protect against missile strikes from the Middle East, but was seen by many as a bulwark against Russian aggression.) And we failed. Unfortunately, it was one of the moments in my life when I had to swallow the bitter pill, and I realized that my dear Czech fellow citizens, many of them, were really afraid that if we would have this sort of equipment here, that we could become the first target of Russian aggression, Russian rockets and missiles. And I was trying to explain, ‘Guys, these are the eyes. You know, the eyes of this system. What do you protect the most? Your eyes.’ So, this radar would be the best protected place in Europe. The whole country would be the best protected place.

But at that time, already, Russian propaganda, the Russian disinformation campaign, worked pretty well. It was the first experience with a Russian disinformation campaign which was very effective. And it could be so effective because they had a lot of useful idiots and Trojan horses on their side here, even among our politicians, including our then-prime minister, Jiří Parobek. Total idiot! My goodness, such an idiot.

Of course, in politics you can see some idiots, even in some very important countries. But, well, we lost it at that time. It was signed already. Our minister of foreign affairs, Karl Schwarzenberg, signed a treaty with [then U.S. Secretary of State] Condoleezza Rice. And then in our parliament, we missed one or two votes [we needed] to ratify it. Really, that was one of the moments when I thought that I [should] resign and leave the Foreign Service because…you are building the house from the cards and it's a very complicated job to build it, to fix it, and it's fragile, and then some idiot bumps it, and it all falls. By the way, at that time I cooperated quite closely with the [conservative U.S.] Heritage Foundation. They were very instrumental [in the radar project] and they were very pro-NATO and transatlantically-oriented then. And I believe that they still think that they are. They maybe underestimate the role of the current president.

Do you remember your initial interest in the career you eventually took up in terms of becoming a diplomat, a career in international relations? Was there something that motivated you specifically, and were there any figures, American or otherwise, that you looked to as examples or people whom you admired?

You know, when the regime collapsed here and I could finally do what I really wanted, my greatest interest in international relations was focused on relations between small countries and great powers. I was writing my thesis about it, and when I studied in London in 1991, I was even lecturing about it. Then I got a fellowship from the Norwegian Nobel Institute and so I wrote an essay about a situation that had [shaped] our national mentality a lot. This is the [1938] Munich crisis and the environment in Europe in between [the two world] wars. And then the so-called Second Republic started here, after the Munich Agreement. What for me was fascinating, already then and now again, was that we had our fascists as well. We had our Nazis here. Karel Čapek, a quite famous Czech author, was hated not only by the German Nazis but by the so-called Czech patriots, the Czech fascists. For me, that period was something that really fascinated me. The fact that we were sort of the last island of real democracy in Europe, if you look at that time. And we were alone. Unfortunately, our bilateral-relations treaties with our allies Great Britain and France, and also the Soviet Union, didn't work. So that was the reason I was very much interested in international relations, how to fix our security for the future. And I was very much convinced that we have to do this as a member of NATO.

So from Washington you then went to Moscow for your official post as the Czech ambassador to Moscow. I was wondering how your experience there compared with your time in the U.S. You were already obviously familiar with Russian culture and you had traveled there, but how did actually living and working there compare to your time in America?

You know, in Russia, the society is structured. You have intellectuals who are incredibly educated and it's fascinating to have a debate with them. And then you have, at the other end of the spectrum, very ordinary people who at the same time – and this is something that they have in common with the top, intellectually sophisticated thinkers in society – they think in terms of global politics. It's fascinating. You are in the car with a taxi driver or in the shop or with a hairdresser and they speak about international affairs with you. Once they learn that you are a diplomat or you are a foreigner, they want to know why Czechoslovakia split, why we are not with them anymore, why we are in NATO, how come we prefer Americans and not Russians because we are brothers, Slavic brothers. And once you tell them that we are not brothers and even not Slavic brothers, they look at you like  you are a traitor. So, it was formative, and I have to say that if somebody, some foreigner, says, ‘I understand Russia,’ I have to pay my tribute, because I don't understand Russia at all. 

Russians have a saying like what you have in America – love it or leave it. They have something similar, like you can understand Russia only by your heart, but not by your mind or by reason. So obviously, my heart is not beating for Russia, that's probably the reason why I can't understand it. And quite often, in the beginning, it happened to me quite often when I tried to explain to someone, while I was arguing something, I was just like, ‘Guys, we are all Europeans. We should be on the same side of the barricades. Why should we fight or struggle? Let's do things hand in hand.’ [And then they would say] ‘No, no, we are not Europeans. We are Euro-Asians. And it's different.’ And step by step I realized that the mentality is different, a lot of things are different, their perception of the world and their role in the world is different.

All their invasions, they perceive as international [aid]. I said, ‘Well, this is occupation.’ [They would say,] ‘No, we came there to help you.’ Like in 1968 [in Czechoslovakia], or Georgia in 2008, South Ossetia and Abkhazia. They always see their role in the world as peacemakers, as those who really want to make the world better. And they don't understand how come we in the West have better living conditions. But at the same time, they are jealous and they would like to live like us. They would like to have everything like we have. That's the reason why these rich Russians are sending their kids to study and live in London, and so on.

My experience in Russia was that you can find fascinating people – educated, very well-educated people. Unfortunately, most of them are not in Russia anymore. So this brain drain, that's something that I think is really the biggest problem of current Russia. Brain drain. The fact that they are not able to produce anything competitive. What do you have at home from Russia – a Kalashnikov? A machine gun? Vodka, maybe, that's all. And gas and oil – they are totally dependent on exports of fossils.

You mentioned that people that you met there – everyday people, taxi drivers in Russia – had a tendency to think in terms of global politics, of a wider outlook. Do you think Americans think at all about global politics in that sense?

Not at all. Of course, those people whom I met in different [U.S.] think tanks, that's something where you have to differentiate – people who are interested in international politics, they have fascinating knowledge and expertise. And then ordinary people, you tell them that you are from Europe. And okay, they have a very limited knowledge of Europe. But by the way – when I ask here [of my] dear fellow Czech citizens, if they know where Missouri or Alabama is, many of them would have no clue either. So we should be fair. Why should we be so selfish as to expect that all Americans would know that Prague is the capital city of Czechia. ‘What's Czechia? [Isn’t it] Czechoslovakia?’ I remember when I was introduced as a young research fellow in the Woodrow Wilson Center in 1991, my liaison officer introduced me as ‘Peter Kollar from Yugoslovakia.’

Okay, Yugoslovakia – nice new term. So of course you have ordinary people who have never traveled abroad, who are not even interested in traveling abroad. Or if they’d like to travel abroad, [it would be to] Paris and Rome. That's all. But, well, it very much depends. I was really fascinated once by the incredible knowledge of details in European affairs when I visited Salt Lake City in Utah. The Mormons, they were very well prepared. They knew perfectly well who I was, what the name of my grandfather was. So they were prepared perfectly well. It was like visiting the headquarters of the CIA or something like that. And they knew about my country, a lot of things. By the way, they have here [in Prague], as you know, their mission. So really, you can't generalize. It very much depends on the people you meet.

Now, my debates with some of my friends about President Trump, for example, are also something that is eye-opening. I didn't realize it before. I believe that this is a sort of American patriotism, which is based on the feeling that this [kind of] social engineering that’s imported from Europe is not good for them – that they don't need to be masterminded by [anybody else]. I mean in the federal government. And their freedom is a ‘FREEDOM’ which is with big letters, not like little freedom. And well, President Trump is the guy who is finally openly saying the things which they were afraid to say, because political correctness became the sort of mantra which would not allow them to wish you ‘Merry Christmas.’ We have to say only ‘Happy Holidays.’

This is what I think is important to realize everywhere: If you have a progressive part of society which, maybe with good intentions, is trying to improve the life of others without helping ordinary people to identify with that, there is a pendulum that can go back quite fast.

So, we've had the elections in the U.S. in 2024. There was really, I think it's fair to say, an earthquake, both domestically in the U.S., but also in the reactions abroad with our allies in Europe, with our allies around the world. Alarm bells are going off in capitals around the world, whether it's to do with tariffs and trade or with security issues, the general erosion of democratic norms. I was wondering, what are you thinking about these events and how are you reacting to the things that are happening in the United States since 2024? As someone who has lived under a totalitarian regime, and has lived in Russia. What red flags are you seeing in the U.S. now, and how concerned are you about what's happening?

You are an American citizen, yes? Aren't you afraid to speak loudly about it?

It's crossed my mind, let's put it that way.

That's it. Absolutely unexpected situation. Unusual situation. I was in Washington in the middle of January for a conference my friends organized there. And it was the first time when I realized that my American friends, Republican friends, are whispering when we speak about the guy who now occupies the Oval Office. And they're looking around [to see] if somebody is listening.

I would never expect that something like that could happen in the United States. For me, my second home, the country which I always perceived as a guarantee for all world democracy, that now there is a sort of autocracy. When you saw the pictures or recordings from the Oval Office after the first hundred years (sic) of President Trump in office, with this administration, how these people were paying their tributes to him and he was receiving their compliments… Is this the United States or North Korea? 

Well, it's a pity and it's dangerous and it's strange. But honestly, I think that this is the sort of lecture or lesson you deserved. Because you Americans were always lecturing others about how they should build their democracies, how they should treat politics and whatever. And suddenly, you have [the same problem]. I remember how we were lectured [by the U.S.] that we don't sufficiently support the LGBTQ community here. Hmm, okay guys, who’s having trouble with [this now]? I'm not saying it sarcastically. It's a real pity. I love the United States, and I am sure that without the United States, our so-called Global West is very weak. It's not lost. We have enough power to survive. But we have managed to become so dependent on the United States in terms of security. And it's really something that we deserve, too – I mean Europeans and others from the Global West. We were living our comfortable lives, building our social states, without spending serious money for our defense and security. And it was not only President Trump who was telling us that [we] are obliged to do what [we] promised to do. So, from that point of view, I am with President Trump. But this is probably the only [instance].

We [in Europe] deserve such a shock. You [in America] deserve it too. I believe that the United States has something in its genes that would prevent Trumpism from becoming the trend. I am optimistic. I see the glass half full, not half empty. You survived McCarthyism, you survived many failures in building democracy or attempts to. But it's good to have such a blow in our faces. A wake-up call. A cold shower. We deserve to wake up from our lethargy and from our comfortable life [in which] we thought that everything is done, that we have these guarantees from NATO, which means from the United States, and the umbrella, the nuclear umbrella, which would always protect us. So, I think that this is something that should provoke us to think about the Global West in different ways – even how to do it with the United States [or] without the United States. We have not only the European Union and NATO. We also have Australia, New Zealand, Japan, hopefully even South Korea. Again.

So, this is something that is now the mission for brave politicians – like for example our Czech president, the current one – to stick together, to be more united, to organize a better division of labor, and to be aware that [Francis] Fukuyama was not right. The end of history has not come yet.

I wanted to ask you question we're asking all of the people we're speaking to for the podcast. At this unprecedented moment in time, with so many things that had seemed to be certain but are no longer taken for certain, as a diplomat, as an engaged citizen, as person with all of your personal experience, what advice do you have for an American audience, for Americans who are worried, who are concerned about the state of their democracy, and who are struggling really to react to what's happening? What can you tell them?

I'm far away from giving any advice to my dear American friends. I would advise everybody who is a freedom-lover to not take it for granted. take it as something that is not granted. We see it. To win freedom is very hard. To lose it – [snaps fingers] – it's like that. In a few moments you can lose it, if you don't take it seriously.

So my advice for everybody would be: It's not done. We have no time to have a rest. We have to work hard, we have to take it seriously. And every citizen, every single person, can do something. It's not like, ‘Okay, those guys upstairs somewhere, they have to do it and maybe we can follow.’ No, it's for everybody. This is a job for everybody to take care [of] and to cultivate in our society.

And [also], never stop educating yourself. I think this is the problem. Not only in the United States – it's everywhere. If you have uneducated people who are simply sort of a crowd which can be easily manipulated, then democracy is threatened. Look at Finland, for example. This is a good example. They understand that education is a strategic commodity.

If you educate your kids from a very early age about what it means to be a citizen, a free citizen of a free country – that this is not only a privilege, but also a duty, and that freedom is a responsibility first of all, and you have to do your part in this responsibility to protect it and preserve it for the next generations – you can survive. And not only survive, you can cultivate your society.

That was extremely interesting and thank you very much for your time.

Thank you, Steve. Thanks. It's always nice to see old friends. Old young friends.

Exactly. Always a diplomat!

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You can listen to this conversation by following Weight of the World on Spotify and Apple. This transcript has been lightly edited for clarity.